Answer:  This question allows us to explore some interesting issues relative to concealed carry and schools.  First, I need to help make sure that everyone understands that none of the advice I give is ‘legal advice’.  Since I am not an attorney, I can only give you my informed opinion.

The answer to your question “Can a school employee and or administrator carry a gun in a school vehicle?” depends on a variety of factors.

First, under the Arizona Revised Statutes 13-3102 (12.) you cannot possess a deadly weapon on school grounds.  The only exceptions to this are:

1.  If the firearm is not loaded and is carried within a means of transportation under the control of an adult and if the adult leaves the means of transportation, the firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle is locked.

2.  Firearms use on the school grounds in a program approved by the school.  Generally this means having ‘written permission’ from the primary administrator of the school in question.

3.  The person in possession of the firearm is a concealed weapons permit holder and is transiting school property to pick up or drop off a passenger.  The concealed weapons permit holder is not permitted to leave the vehicle in possession of the firearm on school property.  The gun must be unloaded and locked inside the vehicle if the permit holder leaves his or her vehicle.

Now, the question becomes, is the school vehicle on school property?  If the school vehicle is being driven somewhere beside school property, it is like any other vehicle and subject to normal laws.  In my view, the fact that it is a school vehicle and is being driven by a school employee is irrelevant from a firearms perspective.  Normal firearm laws apply would apply.  If you drive the school vehicle onto school property, then ARS 13-3102 (12) would apply.

The only other factor to consider would be any administrative rules that have been defined by the school district.  Like any other employer, a school district can implement reasonable policies and procedures to regulate the behavior of their employees.  I would suggest that prior to carrying a firearm in a school vehicle, any school employee or administrator should check to make sure there are no district policies that prohibit such activity.

Answer:  The answer to the question above is  “it depends”.  To understand why, let’s take this situation a piece at a time.

Since you have a valid CCW and it is your vehicle, as long as your firearm stays under your exclusive control (probably by being on your person), neither you nor your co-worker should have any issues.  

He is not in possession of the firearm, which would be illegal for him and you are not allowing a ‘prohibited possessor’ access to a firearm which would be illegal for both of you.

But with a slight modification of the circumstances, things could change fairly dramatically.  For example, if you were to place your firearm in the glove box and your co-worker were sitting in the passenger seat, he would have immediate, unrestricted access to your firearm.  This would be illegal for him and could have several complications for you as well.  It would be even worse if you left him alone in the vehicle with your firearm.

The key element here is his ‘access’ to the firearm.  If he doesn’t have access, then it is not a problem.  If he does, then it is.  I’d suggest that you keep the firearm on your person, or if you can’t do that you need to lock your firearm inside a secure lockbox that is somehow attached to your vehicle or inside of your trunk where your co-worker has no access to it.

As an additional piece of information, if you co-workers conviction was for a non-violent felony offense, he should consider asking the court to restore his civil rights, including his right to own a firearm.  If this request is granted, it could help him out a great deal and could make this entire problem go away…

Question:  We have inherited a Glock pistol from a relative in Colorado.  It came with a large amount of ammo for the gun. 

Is there a law about transporting this gun and a limit on the amount of ammo for it?  It is for another relative and we have been asked to deliver it.

Answer:  There is no limit on ammo that you can transport as long as it is for personal use (not for resale).  

Regarding transporting your gun, the laws vary from state to state in terms of how a firearm may be legally transported in a vehicle.  

Since you didn’t say where you would be transporting the gun, if you keep it in a locked case in the trunk and keep the gun unloaded while you are transporting it, you will be in compliance with the strictest laws out there and shouldn’t have a problem…

A reader sent me a question regarding the legality of having firearms in a household where there is a convicted felon. The specific question was:

“I have a valid Arizona CCW and want to keep a pistol in the house. My wife was convicted of a felony 15 years ago. Is it legal for me to keep a pistol in my house with her living there? What about the legality of carrying one concealed in my car?”

There are several points worthy of discussion here. First there is a bit of a conflict. The questioner can legally carry a concealed weapon and own a firearm. His wife cannot do either, yet they live in the same house.

Technically, if there is a firearm in the home, the wife is in violation of the law. As a convicted felon, she is prohibited from possessing a firearm. If she has reasonable access a firearm in the home, then she is violating the law. Her husband might also be charged with a weapons misconduct violation for making a firearm available to a prohibited possessor.

There are a couple of avenues for resolving this. The best would be to petition the court for restoration of her civil rights. As long as the felony conviction was not for a ‘dangerous offense’ as defined in ARS 13-604, depending on the crime, a convicted felon can apply for restoration of their civil rights two years after completion of any court ordered probation. If the person was convicted of a ‘serious offense’ under ARS 13-604, that period might be extended to as much as 10 years before the court can be petitioned for restoration of civil rights.

If the conviction is an old one and did not involve a ‘dangerous offense’, it would probably be worth looking into petitioning the court for restoration of civil rights. This would make the whole problem go away.

If that is not an option, then another thought would be to store the firearm in the home in such a way that there was no possibility of access by the wife. This would mean keeping any firearm in a locked safe that she did not have the combination for. Keyed locks, trigger locks or cable locks probably won’t work here as it could be argued they are easily defeated or that the key might become accessible.

The third possibility is not to have a firearm in the home at all. While I know this would seem to violate the rights of the husband to possess a firearm, rights don’t require that you exercise them. It is a choice that you can make or not. By having a firearm in the home, if it is accessible to the wife, it is placing her at risk of criminal prosecution under both state and federal law. This is probably not a prospect that she would relish.

Regarding the concealed carry in a vehicle, as long as the firearm is under the husband’s direct personal control and is not accessible to the wife, it is perfectly legal for him to have a concealed weapon in the vehicle. In my opinion, it needs to be on his person. If it were concealed anywhere else in the vehicle (map pocket, glove box, console), it could easily be argued that the firearm is accessible to anyone in the vehicle, including his wife should she be in the car. As a prohibited possessor, this again places her at risk of prosecution.

This is definitely a tough situation and not good for either the husband or wife. I’d say the best option is to check with the court to see if she is eligible to have her rights restored. This would be a good thing for her all the way around.

If that doesn’t work, you’ll need to think about the other options and which one you are willing to live with.

A questioner wanted to know if he could carry his firearm with him on his upcoming trip to Los Angeles. He is an Arizona CCW Permit Holder and wanted to know what his options for carry in California were.

The short answer is “No Carry in California”. California does not recognize the Arizona CCW permit or permits from any other state. They only recognize Concealed Carry permits issued by California which are nearly impossible to get in most urban parts of the state.

If you travel to California and plan to take your firearm with you, be informed that unlike Arizona, open carry is prohibited in California in all incorporated areas. Some rural areas are OK, but it is very limited. You definitely would not want to try it anywhere around Los Angeles.

If you plan to transport your firearm to California in the passenger compartment of your vehicle, it must be in a CA DOJ approved locked case and the gun must be unloaded inside the case. If it is not in a locked case, it must be unloaded and cased and kept in the trunk.

If you are taking a handgun, you also might bear in mind that magazines with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds are also illegal in California.

I recently got a question from a gentleman who was asking about whether or not an employer could legally prohibit a person from keeping a firearm in their locked vehicle while at work. He specifically asked about keeping the gun in the car unloaded and out of sight. He also asked about the legal liability that the employer might have if you were unable to defend yourself in a carjacking or similar situation as a result of this prohibition.

This is a pretty serious issue for a lot of us in Arizona and also for gun owners in general in many other states. The NRA has been lobbying hard to get state legislatures to address this issue which they feel unfairly limits a person’s Second Amendment rights.

There are really two issues to discuss here. First is the right that a property owner has to prohibit firearms on his or her private property. This right also extends to businesses. In Arizona, an individual or company can legally prohibit persons from bringing a firearm on their premises. They need only provide reasonable notice of that prohibition, such as a sign at the entrance to the building or parking lot. In the case of an employer, that notice could simply be a statement of company policy. There is a much larger question that deals with whether this type of policy can be made a condition of employment. We aren’t going to try and address that issue here.

The second issue is the right of an individual to carry a firearm for personal protection as provided under the Second Amendment to the Constitution and under the laws of the State of Arizona.

At this point, there is a conflict in the law. That conflict means that as a visitor to a business or as an employee of a business that prohibits firearms on their premises, you are breaking the law if you bring a gun into their building or parking lot in violation of their prohibition. The specific law you would be breaking would most likely be Criminal Trespass. This is a misdemeanor crime in most cases. If you are interested in a discussion of the laws regarding criminal trespass in Arizona, you can read a prior post I have written by clicking on the following link: http://arizonaccwpermit.com/2008/06/01/penalty-for-trespassing/

Regarding the question of liability, the law is silent. You could certainly sue your employer if their prohibition resulted in your injury or a property loss as a direct result of your inability to defend yourself. In reality, it would be a tough thing to prove and since most companies have much deeper pockets than most of us who work for a living, it would be a tough case to win.

There is legislation pending in Arizona right now that would make it legal for you to have a firearm in your locked vehicle in your employer’s parking lot as long as that parking lot is ‘publicly accessible’. It also releases the employer or business from any liability that might result from a careless, negligent or illegal act that might occur on their property as a result of someone bringing a firearm on their property. Similar laws have passed in Alaska, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Minnesota, Mississippi and Oklahoma.

The law recently passed in Georgia did not get quite as much bang for the buck as was originally hoped. The original law was more of a blanket prohibition of any limitation on bringing a firearm into a public parking facility. What actually came out of the legislature was much different.

Essential, the Georgia law limits the ability of public or private employers “to search the locked privately owned vehicles of employees or invited guests on the employee’s parking lot and access thereto;” or “conditioning employment upon any agreement by a prospective employee that prohibits an employee from entering the parking lot and access thereto when the employee’s personal vehicle contains a licensed concealed firearm in his or her vehicle.” It should be noted that these limitations don’t apply to company leased or owned vehicles.

In addition, the law provides for the possibility of search of the vehicle by the company if “a reasonable person would believe that accessing a locked vehicle of an employee is necessary to prevent an immediate threat to human life or safety”.

Finally, employers will not violate the Georgia law if they perform a search that has been consented to by the employee and performed by “licensed private security officers for loss prevention purposes based on probable cause that the employee unlawfully possesses employer property”.

This raises a whole multitude of issues with respect to who is a “licensed private security officer”. Whether or not a supervisor that participated in the search would be violating the law. Whether the search was reasonable based on the size of the employer and the property that has been alleged to have been taken. Certainly, one can imagine several scenarios where overzealous application of the narrow exceptions could result in employee’s vehicle being searched.

As you can see, this is going to be a tough issue to resolve. Let’s hope that Arizona is able to do a better job than Georgia was able to do. That’s said, it is a positive development that at least Georgia has done something to protect the rights of their licensed concealed permit holders.

I received a question from a former student of mine about Vehicle Carry in Nevada and whether or not you could conceal a firearm in your vehicle.

Unfortunately, Nevada does not recognize the AZ permit, so an Arizona CCW permit holder cannot conceal a firearm on their person in NV legally.

As far as vehicle transport, long guns must be unloaded and cannot be concealed. Handguns may be loaded or unloaded and carried openly in the vehicle or in the glove compartment or console box, but may not be concealed on your person.

Open carry is permitted, but I’d be pretty careful if you are going to Clark County (Las Vegas). You might find that LV Metro frowns on ‘open carry’ and don’t even think of taking a gun into a casino. Most of the more rural areas are just fine.

We purchased our handguns & rifle several years ago.  We have since moved & in fact the store that we purchased them at no longer exists.  We still live in the same state.  What I am trying to find out is…..I no longer have my registration or bills of sale on my handguns.  Do I need something to prove that my guns are registered to me?  Do I need a proof of purchase?  Do I have to re-register every so often?  I keep my handgun & rifle at home for self-defense.  My wife carries hers in her car at all times for the same reason.  She travels quite a bit.  She also crosses the AZ state line into CA & sometimes into NV.  Is there anything special she has to do there to report that she is carrying a gun?  She does not have a CCW permit, as she carries it unloaded in her vehicle.  It is also in a holster.  Her vehicle is locked at all times.

Thanks,

Rick 

Answer:

Rick,

Arizona does not have any ‘gun registration’ requirement.  Some people think the form they fill out when they purchase a gun is a ‘registration’ when in fact it is simply a record of the transfer from the dealer to the purchaser.  BATF requires these ‘transfer’ documents and requires a firearms dealer to keep them on file.  When a gun store goes out of business, they are supposed to transmit the records to BATF, but in reality, it may or may not occur.

You do not need a proof of purchase or any documentation that they are ‘registered’ to you.  I would recommend that you record the serial numbers and model numbers and keep them somewhere safe.  This way, if you ever lost a gun or had it stolen, you could give the appropriate info to the police.

Your wife should probably get her CCW if she consistently carries a gun in her car.  In Arizona, the law states that the gun must be in plain view or if concealed, it must be at least two steps removed from immediate access by anyone in the vehicle.  An example of ‘two steps removed’ would be in the glove box (step 1) and in a holster (step 2).  If the gun is not in a holster or case and is in the glove box, it is only 1 step removed.  When you have a valid CCW permit, this ‘two step’ rule no longer applies.

When your wife drives into CA, if she has a gun in the car, she needs to meet California requirements for transporting the gun.  CA requires that the gun be unloaded and in a locked container in the trunk of the vehicle.  CA also requires that any ammo be in a separate container.  

In Nevada, the firearm can be legally carried in the vehicle unloaded, but not on your person unless you have a Nevada CCW permit.

I’d have her be a little careful traveling into CA.  They are not a gun friendly state.  She needs to take particular care to follow the rules while she is there.

Recently I received this question regarding vehicle carry from an Arizona CCW permit holder.

Question:  I have an AZ CCW.  I have two questions on handguns I was hoping you could help answer:

1. Can I keep the gun in my truck’s armrest storage space with or without a holster?  Can it be loaded?
2. Can I keep the gun wedged between the driver seat and middle seat with or without a holster?  Can it be loaded?

Answer:  The short answer is “yes” to all of your questions.  As an AZ CCW permit holder, you are not subject to the ‘two steps removed from immediate access’ test that non-permit holders must meet for having a firearm concealed in their vehicle. 

You can keep your loaded firearm in the truck’s armrest storage compartment.  It does not need to be in a holster, although I would suggest that you secure it somehow so it doesn’t bounce around in there with the trigger exposed.  From a safety point of view it makes me a little nervous to have un-holstered handgun bouncing around loose.  You never know when something might lodge in the trigger well and potentially cause an accidental discharge.

As far as keeping the gun wedged between the driver seat and middle seat, you can go with or without a holster.  The trigger will be much better protected when it is wedged between the seats, so I am less concerned from a safety perspective.

You mentioned having your gun unloaded.  Personally, I keep my firearms loaded at all times when I carry them.  The only time they are unloaded is when they are locked in the safe.  If you need your handgun, you will REALLY need it and you probably won’t have the time to load it…so, I’d make sure that if you carry for personal defense, have your gun loaded.  If you have a pistol with a hammer, make sure it is down.  If you have one with a safety, make sure it is on.